Focus Ontario
June 21, 2007
Liberal Government’s New Climate Change Initiatives
GUESTS:
Hon Laurel Broten, Environment Minister
Keith Stewart, WWF – Canada
Tom Adams, Energy Probe
HOST – SEAN MALLEN
Full transcript follows
Preamble
SEAN MALLEN: With apologies to Al Gore, it is ‘An Inconvenient Truth’ in Ontario. Even as our concern about climate change continues to grow, the industry that powers our provincial economy, auto manufacturing, is often accused of being one of the biggest culprits. Another inconvenient truth – we get a large portion of our electricity from coalfired generating plants, another principal source of greenhouse gases. The challenge for anyone seeking high office in this province is to balance those seemingly conflicting demands.
There’s no election platform yet from Dalton McGuinty’s Liberals, but given the sudden rush of big-ticket promises and plans on climate change, we strongly suspect that saving the planet will be a key element.
Premier Dalton McGuinty: The opportunity before us is a stronger economy with a much smaller environmental footprint. It really is the best of all worlds. But as his opponents enjoy pointing out, McGuinty has a record to overcome, such as a twice broken promise to close Ontario’s coal-fired generators.
Tim Hudak: He said he’d close the plant by 2007, he broke that promise. Then he said 2009, well he’s going to break that promise. Now we’re supposed to believe him for 2014. Come on!
SEAN MALLEN: The Premier is winning guarded praise from environmentalists for at least setting targets that are more ambitious than Ottawa’s.
Julia Langer, WWF – Canada: And the really important piece of this is that it is a sharp contrast, and a real kick at the federal government to get moving on action on climate change.
SEAN MALLEN: The question remains, can we get there from here with this plan.
From the Global News Room in Toronto, Focus Ontario with Sean Mallen.
SEAN MALLEN: Thanks for joining me again. Later in the program I’ll be joined by an environmentalist and an energy analyst for some other views of the Liberal government’s climate change plans. But first a reminder of some of the key elements – to reduce Ontario’s greenhouse gas emissions to six per cent below 1990 levels by the year 2014, that’s two years later than the Kyoto target – to close all the coal-fired generating plants by 2014; – a $650 million fund to encourage the development of green technologies, especially cars; – and a $17.5 billion initiative to improve public transit in the GTA. And with that quick overview I welcome my first guest, who is the Minister of the Environment, Laurel Broten. Good to have you back on the program, minister.
Hon Laurel Broten: Thank you very much.
SEAN MALLEN: As I indicated in the opening there, you’re getting some guarded praise from environmentalists about the overall targets, but some questions about how you’re going to reach some of those targets. The biggest question is about the coal plants. Tom Adams from Energy Probe, is going to be on in a couple of minutes, and he’s going to say it’s feasible to close the coal plants, but not without buying some pretty expensive power from elsewhere. Is that going to be a trade-off? Are our power rates going to go up?
Laurel Broten: Well, the question that you posed at the beginning of the program is can we get there from here. And I think the answer is a resounding yes, because we’ve been laying the groundwork that we need to be able to do that. We know that about fifty per cent of our 2014 commitment will come from the electricity sector of the greenhouse gas reductions.
SEAN MALLEN: From the coal plants specifically.
Laurel Broten: From the coal plants, but also from all of the work that we’re doing right now to conserve electricity, to put renewables in force, to have a new clean standard offering, a new renewable standard offering, so it’s a real transformation of that sector, and especially in the long term because we have really long term goals for 2020 and for 2050. By 2050, 80 per cent reduction. That really means we have to transform the way we live, and we’re well on our way to doing that.
SEAN MALLEN: To my question, does that translate into higher energy prices in the near future to cover the closure of those coal plants?
Laurel Broten: Well, we’ve seen that we’ve been able to come out with fixed price for solar, for wind. And we are seeing that we have moved from last to first in terms of renewables. The New York Times this week said Ontario is a beacon and a leader in terms of renewable energy. That’s what we need to do. It’s a many front approach, more renewable energy, closing down the coal plants, and at the same time helping Ontarians conserve electricity, and that’s why the incentives that we’ve put forward this week with respect to helping Ontarians in their own homes, reducing their consumption. If we reduce our consumption, that helps us close the coal plants even faster.
SEAN MALLEN: Okay, you’re not the energy minister, you don’t want to speculate whether there’s higher prices coming up?
Laurel Broten: I’m certainly not going to speculate as to what we will see in the future, but we do know that coal is cheap because it’s dirty, and it puts out air pollutants, it causes smog, it frankly kills Ontarians, and it contributes to our greenhouse gases. So I have been a long time proponent of wanting to close those coal plants, primarily from a health focus.
SEAN MALLEN: You understand why the Liberals had a credibility issue on this though? I mean you made the promise twice to close them and missed both targets.
Laurel Broten: What we need to remember Sean, is that we’re the only jurisdiction that is doing this. Everyone else is building more, and we’re going the other direction. And when I travel around Canada and North America I have to say that people are really surprised that we’ve taken such a firm stand. They think it’s amazing that we’re doing that, and we are demonstrating that you can go a different route, and you can find alternate sources of electricity, and that you can keep your economy strong. Because you’re right, it is a balance. We want that green economy and those good jobs here and that’s also why we’re seeking to transform the automotive sector as well.
SEAN MALLEN: Well, you raised that and some of the critics suggest that is one of the holes, I mean one of the biggest sources of greenhouse gases are the cars that we all drive, whether they be hybrids or not. But you’re not going down the route of tougher emission standards on autos. Can’t really do it in this province.
Laurel Broten: No, wait a minute. What we’re doing is again on all fronts, seeking to change the way we transport ourselves and our goods. So $17.5 billion to totally change and build 52 new projects over the next number of years.
SEAN MALLEN: But they don’t start until 2011. Do they have an impact in this short run, before 2011?
Laurel Broten: Well, they have an impact in terms of the more people we get on public transit, yes. And we’ve already been making significant investments in public transit. So this is building for the next generation. I think what we need to remember is there’s both short term and long term things that need to take place. We need to get the quick hit; we need to find ways to get people onto the buses and the systems that already exist. And so we’ve been doing that to make sure we can expand those programs. We are also entering into an agreement with California with respect to emissions, fuel standards.
SEAN MALLEN: Fuel standards, not emissions.
Laurel Broten: And the Premier has said, we want to see very tough North American continental-wide standards, because in Ontario we build cars for the rest of North America, and a lot of that pollution comes up here.
SEAN MALLEN: Okay, I’ll stop you there, we’ll take a break; back in a moment with Laurel Broten.
* * *
SEAN MALLEN: And we’re back, talking climate change with Environment Minister Laurel Broten. The Premier said minister, that he still had $60 million allocated in the budget, unspent, for climate change programs. So what’s next?
Laurel Broten: Well, you’re going to have to wait and see what we’re doing next.
SEAN MALLEN: Give us a hint.
Laurel Broten: But let me focus on what we are trying to do. What we are doing as a province is really taking incredible leadership to get ourselves to where we need to be to live a sustainable existence. And I know you have a little one, I have two little ones, Keith Stewart has one –
SEAN MALLEN: He’s on the next segment in case you’re wondering.
Laurel Broten: – it really is all about changing the way we live. What we spent the last year doing was really figuring out – the last several years, laying the groundwork – where do our greenhouse gas emissions come from, and how are we going to make those changes. So one of the really important announcements that the premier made when you said he indicated the dollar amount, was putting $150 million of the $210 million that we set aside in the last budget, on the table for homeowners to help them make changes in their life.
SEAN MALLEN: Improve insulation, buy energy-efficient appliances.
Laurel Broten: That’s right, they can get ideas about what to do on gogreenontario.ca. That is really significant because it’s what Ontarians are asking about, they want to be part of it. There’s a part for us to play in the province, that’s take leadership; but in our own homes and in our own lives that’s really where our greenhouse gas emissions come from. So we need to make changes.
SEAN MALLEN: Let me ask you one specific element of that, which is a one-year provincial tax holiday on energy-efficient appliances starting in July. The Liberal government three years ago cancelled a tax credit on energy-efficient appliances that was brought in by the Conservative government. So can you understand why the Tories are saying what’s up, it’s election year, you’re bringing back a variant of a program that they could have kept going for three years?
Laurel Broten: Well, when we cancelled that program we put in place the bounty instead. What we learned was the structure that was in place and the frame of mind that Ontarians had, that what they were really doing was getting a second fridge and putting the old fridge in the basement. So it wasn’t saving us on greenhouse gases, in fact it was making it worse.
SEAN MALLEN: But how is this any different, you’re encouraging people to buy energy-efficient appliances.
Laurel Broten: Now we have a variety of different programs in place and frankly I think Ontarians’ awareness to the issues of the environment has skyrocketed in the last year. I think more than anybody as minister of environment, I really have an understanding of where we were a couple of years ago and where Ontarians are now. I think they understand their footprint. We didn’t even talk about that language a couple of years ago. They understand the impact of their decisions and I know that they are very anxious to participate in making sure that we have a sustainable province with a healthy and clean environment for our kids, and they’re going to do their part, just like the government is.
SEAN MALLEN: The opposition points out that the legislature was originally scheduled to be sitting until the end of this week. A lot of this could have been introduced in the legislature, and maybe even at least start the legislative process. Instead it’s rolled out now. No more sitting before the election, and it all looks like a Liberal election platform.
Laurel Broten: Well, governments keep governing until the end of their mandate, and frankly my constituents in Etobicoke-Lakeshore expect that, and I think most Ontarians do. What we’re doing right now is to roll out a variety of measures that we budgeted for in the budget. The budget was introduced in the legislature, as it should be, unlike the former government.
SEAN MALLEN: The budget put $17.5 million dollars in energy announcements.
Laurel Broten: With respect to the regulatory regime that we have to close the coal plants, the regulation to do that, we have the legislation in place; and let’s be clear how much legislation we passed – the Clean Water Act, the Species at Risk Act, sustaining and safeguarding our Water Act. A lot of legislation and everything that we committed to.
SEAN MALLEN: Okay fair enough, but this is important stuff, so why can’t this be introduced, at least begin the debate in the legislature, face questions about it in the legislature?
Laurel Broten: Well, we had completed what we said we would do in our mandate. We have been working on our climate change plan and I have been saying for many, many months it would be out in the spring, it would be out in June. We have always, since we’ve shared our summit three years in a row, done a lot of our work with respect to talking about our air quality and what we would do with respect to the environment, climate change, in the month of June. That’s when we’re doing it. I think that Ontarians will be very, very pleased about what we’re undertaking, and I am out every day talking to them and I’m having a chance to talk to you and to the critics as well. So they can be very transparent about it.
SEAN MALLEN: But all this is going to be in the Liberal platform.
Laurel Broten: It’s going to be part of our record, which is what I know that I’m going to be talking to my own constituents about, and frankly I’m very, very proud to be part of a government that has taken green steps since the very beginning of our mandate. We’re not going to stop until we complete the job.
SEAN MALLEN: Okay, well you completed the job at Focus Ontario this week. We’ll have you on again.
Laurel Broten: Thank you very much.
SEAN MALLEN: Laurel Broten, Environment Minister. And when Focus returns, some expert commentary on the climate change plan.
* * *
SEAN MALLEN: And welcome back. My guests for this segment are Keith Stewart, who is the climate change campaign manager for WWF Canada; and Tom Adams, the executive director of Energy Probe. Good to see you both, thanks for coming on the program.
Guests: Thank you.
SEAN MALLEN: I want to ask both your opinions first, just an overall review of climate change plans to date. Start with you, Mr Stewart.
Keith Stewart: Well, we’re seeing something. The transit announcement was really impressive. We’ve seen lots of announcements of big funding for transit by many governments before. We’ve rarely actually seen them built, but you know, I think if the public sort of really keeps the pressure on it will get built and it will be a great thing. There are some real problems I think with their energy plan, about whether or not they are going to close the coal plants with the plan they have right now. We’re missing some stuff on the automobile side in terms of regulation, but you know this is a lot better than the federal plan. It’s up there with some of the better provincial climate plans we’ve seen, and I think it’s just going to keep getting better as the bidding in the election begins. And I think this is the base line and it’s going to go up from here between now and October 10th.
SEAN MALLEN: Mr Adams, what do you think?
Tom Adams: Well, the climate change plan itself is something of an excuse not to improve the quality of our air. They’re not investing in air pollution control equipment. It’s very cost effective, very environmentally effective.
SEAN MALLEN: On the coal plants you mean.
Tom Adams: On the coal plants. They say they’re going to close the coal plants in 2015 or 2014. The reasons that drove them to break the promises have not changed. The cost of natural gas is still through the roof. Building a big fleet of natural gas-fired generating stations, which Ontario is now in the midst of, is going to turn into very, very expensive power. The minister wasn’t keen on answering a question on that one. When you look at the rest of what they’re doing, I mean they’ve got announcements on what they’re doing on climate change, but at the same time they’re still subsidizing the pulp and paper sector. They’ve still got extensive subsidies in the auto sector. They’re building new freeways. A lot of their other commitments are really quite at odds with what they say they’re trying to achieve on the climate change file. So we’ve got a contradictory position here.
Keith Stewart: Yes, right now they’re spending more money building highways than on transit, and until you put those two around, you know you can’t be taken too seriously on the climate front.
SEAN MALLEN: Have we gotten enough to a tipping point for people to accept that? People still want the good roads, people still drive their cars.
Keith Stewart: Yes, I think people are. People are demanding action on climate change and I think people are becoming more and more aware of the changes we actually have to make to make that happen. And I think the overwhelming support we saw for those transit announcements, because frankly even if you drive your car, if we got 800 more people onto transit, that would be a good thing even for drivers.
SEAN MALLEN: I think you both may differ on coal plants, or not coal plants, but I think you’re somewhat on the same page on nuclear plants. There is a question about whether they can keep the lights on under the current plan, given with what’s going to be happening with the nuclear plants.
Keith Stewart: Well, I actually think they can keep the lights. The question is how much coal are they going to use to do that. Their energy plan is really a nuclear plan, it’s like most of the money is for nuclear plants and they don’t mention that in their climate announcement, and the current plan just assumes that all nuclear plants get better every year as they get older, which seems to me an unusual assumption. Those things don’t work as well as they get older. And it’s very slow to build nuclear plants. Soon we’re going to see an announcement that the Pickering B plant can’t all be refurbished, so that means we’re going to have to build more new nuclear plants. That’s going to take ten to fifteen years. So there is that gap, you fill that gap with coal. So we actually think they should be moving much more aggressively on the conservation and renewables front, and rather than putting the eggs in the nuclear basket.
SEAN MALLEN: Mr Adams, can we get there with more aggressive conservation?
Keith Stewart: We’ve been looking at the conservation programs that are out there. I think there’s reason to be a little skeptical about some of the numbers that are coming out, but there is some progress as well, like a lot of the conservation programs are moving in the right direction in a number of areas. Look at the portfolio of replacement power that’s coming in to deal with the fact that we’ve got all these aging generating stations and we’ve got the commitment to close the coal plants. You look at the portfolio of this new generation, one of the characteristics there is all the rate impacts are pushed off until after the election. And what we’re likely to see is, as soon as this election is over, and then the new government, whatever its stripe, is going to be coming out saying, oh, who knew, we’re in for these very steep increases. And I think that changes the debate. People are very concerned about improving the environment. They want to see progress. They’ve been promised a free lunch; when the bill for the lunch starts to show up, the debate changes.
SEAN MALLEN: I wonder Mr Stewart, if indeed energy prices do go up, whether that might be a good thing in a way, forced conservation.
Keith Stewart: Energy prices will go up because anything new we’re building now is going to be more expensive. This is another math, the price can go up, but if you’re using less, you could actually end up with a lower bill. So this is why I think the emphasis on conservation is the best place to be investing, to be regulating, to be putting in place tough rules.
SEAN MALLEN: I guess my question is, it doesn’t enforce conservation though.
Keith Stewart: And if prices go up, then it does give a real incentive for people to look for those savings even more. The thing is we actually are paying huge costs for power right now. It isn’t always on your electrical bill though. I mean you’ve got the Ontario Medical Association saying we’re spending billions a year trying to cure people for diseases caused by air pollution. And when you look at things like the Stern report that came out of the UK government in terms of the cost of climate change, if we put the cost on the greenhouse gases that are coming out of those coal plants, then you would be looking at the price of coal as far, far beyond anything else you can think of. The actual price of coal, when you look at the environmental health impact, it makes it the most expensive form of power. So we’re paying those costs now, they’re just not on your electrical bill. So I think in fairness we need to get those costs down as quickly as possible.
SEAN MALLEN: Let me talk about the transportation sector, our cars. Of course they’re probably the biggest contributor beyond the coal plants. Start with you, Mr Adams, is there any way the government of Ontario could come down hard on the automotive industry, given it’s one jurisdiction that empowers the economy?
Tom Adams: We’ve got to rethink our relationship with the automobile and the way we use our highways. We think that toll roads are a big part of the solution. You look at other jurisdictions, other parts of the world, that have been doing this.
SEAN MALLEN: Hard to get elected in Ontario, promoting toll roads.
Tom Adams: But what you do see, even Mayor Miller, who was campaigning against toll roads, now he’s starting to say gee, you know this could solve some problems. So the politics of toll roads are very tough, but the environmental benefit, the economic benefit, of having free-flowing roads so that emergency vehicles can get through, all that kind of stuff, there are a lot of up sides, but it takes a new thinking. Building more freeways is not going to solve our congestion problems.
SEAN MALLEN: Okay, and that’s the last word. So toll roads, I bet we don’t see it in anybody’s platform. Anyway, Keith Stewart, Tom Adams, thanks very much for coming on the program.
Guests: Thank you.
Taped Thursday, June 21, 2007 for Global TV
Air date – Saturday, June 23, 2007 – 1830
Encore Presentation Sunday, June 24, 2007 – 0700, 1130 and 2330
Focus Ontario’s website: www.globaltv.com/focusontario
Energy Probe 